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Thadeum

NMRIH is too easy

37 posts in this topic

I know that when you start the game for the first time, it's not easy, at all.

But after you know how to handle zombies and avoid them, you can solo absolutely all the mission maps without troubles. I can solo Chinatown from start to end and being hurt by zombies from 0 to 2 times. Eventually, if I get the M1911+Machete combo, I know it will be piece of cake.

I love mission maps, they are by far the most thrilling maps in this mod, but I tend to play less and less due to the fact that soloing the maps is easier than grouping with other survivors. Usually other people will die and disconnect because they are bored of watching the solo survivor doing it all the way through.

It could be nice to have zombies jump on you if you are not facing them, or something like that, that would make avoiding zombies and running around zombies an impossible task.

Edited by Thadeum

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Just sit back and enjoy the satisfaction of being a pr0 at NMRiH. There are few of them around.

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Just sit back and enjoy the satisfaction of being a pr0 at NMRiH. There are few of them around.

I would like to not sit back :-(

What about a L4D-like feature, when a zombie grabs you, you need another survivor to help you/bash him out? Or make runner zombies faster than you?

Edited by Thadeum

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I would like to not sit back :-(

What about a L4D-like feature, when a zombie grabs you, you need another survivor to help you/bash him out? Or make runner zombies faster than you?

why the mod is full of aholes and such i bet most of em would sit by and watch

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why the mod is full of aholes and such i bet most of em would sit by and watch

Isn't that the truth?

For MOST players, the mod is plenty hard. So hard, in fact, it probably deters some not-so-motivated players to seek an easier mod to play. Why, I have no idea. The challenge of overcoming my shortcomings in order to improve and survive more frequently was a source of pride for myself. Knowing I can solo Broadway made me give myself a huge pat on the back.

However, it goes back to a comment I made previously; this game is made for teamwork. It takes one set of skills to solo a map; it takes a whole new set of them to complete a map with all 8 players. Yeah, I dare you to do it. I've managed 5 tops. Maintaining/working with/assisting seven other players takes levels of patience and insight that I find simply daunting.

So, there you have it: get eight players (including yourself) through an objective map. I bet that would up the difficulty level through the roof. Just finding seven other competent players would probably be a challenge in and of itself. If that's not enough, get through a map with no weapons and no flashlight. Complete a map in a certain period of time. Get through a map with 100% health. There have got to be some challenges you can set to increase the difficulty to a satisfying level.

Otherwise, it'd turn the game into something only a very few would find enjoyable.

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It could be nice to have zombies jump on you if you are not facing them, or something like that, that would make avoiding zombies and running around zombies an impossible task.

Yeh, more randomness in their behaviour would be a good move i.e. when within a certain radius sometimes lunging at a player with speed, varying general walk speed for shamblers.

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We're working on improving zombie behaviors but the mod is in my opinion, already very hard.

If you have any ideas to help us make it more difficult, we're all ears. The only thing we won't do are those L4D style situations, because we don't want any one player becoming 100% dependent on another player in order to survive as that is not at the root of our game.

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I think what I suggested would kind of help as it'd be harder to just run through hordes and if you were getting backed into a building or whatever it'd definitely heighten the 'oh shit' factor. As it is, its fairly easy to spot gaps in groups and get through

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In terms of gameplay balance I followed this philosophy: If a tester can complete a level with so much ease he can do it blindfolded, it's "Normal" difficulty for players. If a tester has some trouble but can still finish the level, that's "Hard" difficulty for the public. If a tester can barely finish a level (or if they did but they nearly died) then that's essentially "Impossible/Expert" mode :P

Now, in our case we test our levels (ideally right when they look like this) with a mishmash of testers and devs of varying skill; and we generally hit somewhere around the "Normal" and "Hard" difficulty ideals (it swings more toward the "Hard" spectrum for most testers/devs); sometimes we get our shit stomped really hard due to the game having some random aspects (and requiring some basic problem solving aspects), even more so when we have a medium to large player group (since the players who approach it as an arcady shooter get killed real fast)

So normally in the end, in Chinatown's case, out of 8 players, only 1 or 2 players will get themselves extracted (following the survival horror trope that not everyone gets out alive). In a sense they 'won' the level due to their quick thinking and skill (and luck) but they've lost since they were unable to get more than half of their team out alive

----

So if you can complete the levels by yourself, that's good to hear; I took part in several solo speedruns in the initial 4 objective maps pre release to make sure the maps could be completed solo (if your team dies too early, or on the off chance that the mod would die within the first month so you could still enjoy yourself) and were working fine. Once we get access to Steamworks we'll probably have a separate aspect of the game devoted to Solo gameplay (leaderboards/achievements for skilled speed running, sort of like how in the old Resident Evil games they rewarded you for finishing them really fast without taking any damage)

However in the future (when we finalize our scoreboard and get Steamworks) we'll heavily reward players who manage to complete levels with proper teamwork, especially if they do so with 7 other players who haven't died at all. The ideas and plans are there, we're simply waiting on some stuff to get done first.

----

Also as Maxx said we're working on improving various aspects of the game to make the game challenging and not as exploitable

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Moin moin

I consider myself an advanced player (maybe 7/10 on a skala without considering "progamer" who earn their money with playing games). For me, NMRiH is very group dependant. If I play it with 2-3 good friends it's usually a cakewalk, especially if there are also some other random players in. Alone it's possible, but certainly not easy.

But I agree that it's sometimes too easy to move through hordes of zombies unharmed. I'd suggest to remove the runners in their current state and set zombiespeed to a random value, ranging from the slow shamblers to zombies with ~70% of the speed the runners now have. I'd like to have a gameplay where you have to kill a certain amount of the zombies in your way, but still aren't able to kill ALL zombies. At the moment you can simply dodge most zombies. The easiest and fastest gameplay is where you only kill a handfull of zombies and avoid the rest. So I'd also suggest to change the grab mechanic a bit. It should be easier for zombies to grab a player but harder to actually bite him. Maybe increase the range a zombie has for grabbing a player, but also increase the times it takes a zombie to bite this player so he can shove himself free. It shouldn't be possible to simply move through a horde of zombies without getting grabbed (which is possible at the moment). You should have to clear a path through this horde.

Grüße,

regards,

the Toast

PS: I think that NMRiH is really awesome, even compared to AAA titles. It's one of the rare games that actually creates that sort of "atmosfear" I want to have in a zombie game: It's not that zombie sprint so fast I can't outrun them and have to shoot them all, it's standing against a horde of 50 zombies with just 10 bullets left. It's not getting killed by this one jumper who somehow gets through the hail of bullets but drown in the mass of dead bodies with no bullets left in the magazine.

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I did notice that the nmo games seem easier going at it solo or after everyone else has died, then playing with the other 7 players filled (or alive at least). If your starting out with 8 players then it seems you get butt raped right away and so does everyone else until there is 1 or 3 guys left then it cools down difficulty, if there 1 guy left it sometimes incredible easy for them to dodge through everything specially if they have the machete. It makes it seem like if you have more players the game should be easier but its the other way around, they become a liability. :P

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r u serious? I almost can't start the goddamned generator piece of shit! kkk

those frickin' zombies almost don't die. Once, playing brodway i reach the motel when I open the door I saw 2 zombies and I think, awh two zombis? piececake

and they come more close appear one more seconds later another one, i managed to kill one and they've come and pushed me to the gate and another zombies killed me!

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My thoughts are that we will soon start to make zombies prefer players like yourself making it much more difficult for you to play if you rarely get hurt.

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My thoughts are that we will soon start to make zombies prefer players like yourself making it much more difficult for you to play if you rarely get hurt.

I think l4d does something like that. Pick out players doing good and spawn something nearby that will butt rape them.

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Simulation mode: (example) Weapons break over time, or perhaps work like getting infected in a sense that the weapon can break on the first swing or the 50th. Getting BIT (getting swung at doesn't count) is an autoinfect. Everyone can hear that chomp anyway so in this mode it would be much more critical and hilarious to hear a teammate get bit and essentially lose his life :P Can not aim down sights while moving only hipfire, or at least movement is cut in half to 75% slowdown.

Perhaps another way to make the game harder is to make it harder for players to lead zombies. Instead of the zombies all coming straight at you they can flock a bit more. Take the subway exit at chinatown for example, you can move to the left or right side and they will all lead to that side at you in a semi straight line. Now if they flocked a bit more and a few could kinda wander off on your flanks. Rather than the player running around them like a wide receiver holding sprint down. it keeps zombies from bunching up inside eachother and harder for the player. This is probably not even programmable but then again I don't know anything in area :D

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I play the mod quite often, not as a developer w/ developers/testers. But with the actual public.

In all honesty, I blame the environments. The way mapping is handled. It's quite spacious to easily diverge a walker and a runner. To where you can flee and allow as much as a teammate to get attacked. I believe the mechanics are fine. Just the way they are..

When you take a zombie movie, to a traditional zombie game (i.e. Old Resident evil franchise) their environment spaces are quite narrow and are scaled 1-1 to a location where the player is placed in. This includes to be mentioned Resident Evil outbreak franchise.

If spaces and hallways/corridors were in fact to life scale and more of them were in place for the interior regions of areas for our current maps and future maps. The difficulty would increase for those new and experienced with the game. Luckily it would remain at an equal level for both. Because they would closely be related in space to one another and with player collision on. It would encourage team play and conscious play more so, than where it is currently.

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I play the mod quite often, not as a developer w/ developers/testers. But with the actual public.

In all honesty, I blame the environments. The way mapping is handled. It's quite spacious to easily diverge a walker and a runner. To where you can flee and allow as much as a teammate to get attacked. I believe the mechanics are fine. Just the way they are..

When you take a zombie movie, to a traditional zombie game (i.e. Old Resident evil franchise) their environment spaces are quite narrow and are scaled 1-1 to a location where the player is placed in. This includes to be mentioned Resident Evil outbreak franchise.

If spaces and hallways/corridors were in fact to life scale and more of them were in place for the interior regions of areas for our current maps and future maps. The difficulty would increase for those new and experienced with the game. Luckily it would remain at an equal level for both. Because they would closely be related in space to one another and with player collision on. It would encourage team play and conscious play more so, than where it is currently.

Personally I think the one current map that best portrays this is Cabin to some degree, not because of the cramped hallways (which are actually fairly large) but because of the sheer number of zombies that can cram themselves around doorways. This was especially prevalent in the older version 1.05 and beyond and even today to some extent with 1.06, especially the objective that requires you to break the boards on the main entrance, sometimes it feels necessary to have least 2 or 3 players to get out of there, it's possible to escape from their solo but if your not quick enough the entrance can be swarmed with Zombies and having limited ammunition and not a fast swinging one hit kill melee weapon (even then it can be tough) your pretty much screwed on your own.

To make a map harder, I suppose extending the length of the map is one option, or having objectives that usually require two players to operate safely (I know the Padlocked Gate and Valve wheel in Chinatown can be hectic on your own especially if you didn't clear the zombies very well). Having additional "threats" os always something that can be added to increase the difficulty and add challenge, such as the "Marine Deathsquad" NPC's I keep hearing about or just human NPC's in general that are against the player in some way. It doesn't necessarily have to be a threat, could be just an obstacle to pass.

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Yeah most of the space in resident evil are small so that even 1 zombie can get the drop on you.

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I don't know about the mission maps but the survival maps are pretty easy. The only hard map was the first ever survival map (flooded or whatever it was called). All other survival maps that I played are DAMN EASY.

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Is it just me, or am I getting the strange sensation that people expect NMRiH to be like L4D/L4D2?

Perhaps part of the reason the game seems "easy" is it relies less on twitch-fast reflexes and on-the-fly tactical thinking vs more intellectually driven game play with an emphasis on strategic planning on a broader scale. Objective maps can be done by using common sense, a general knowledge of the map layout, and a pragmatic approach to handling zombies. Survival maps require a more strategic element with players tackling entry points in a coordinated manner. It's a game that seems to reward the more intellectually driven player and less one that simply wants to attack every zombie they face.

That behavior, by the way, is the exact behavior this game would be rewarding if players couldn't herd zombies to one side or the other.

Should there be a greater chaotic element? Sure! I think the devs included that in the latest patch, because I know I can't herd zombies as well as I could. No longer can I simply swarm a bunch of zombies to one side on the wall in Chinatown or behind the chain link fence in Broadway; some just wander aimlessly, making such a herding attempt less effective. It is still[/] effective, however, allowing players to knock down the one or two that get in the way and still sneak past for the most part.

Making running past zombies extremely difficult or impossible won't make it harder; it'll turn it into another L4D2 or similar game wannabe.

EDIT: While I like the idea of weapons breaking, it would be more suitable on objective maps than survival maps; with the difficulty to get the very weapon you want in the first place, having melee weapons break would simply make such maps infuriating.

Edited by Jer 8D

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Is it just me, or am I getting the strange sensation that people expect NMRiH to be like L4D/L4D2?

Perhaps part of the reason the game seems "easy" is it relies less on twitch-fast reflexes and on-the-fly tactical thinking vs more intellectually driven game play with an emphasis on strategic planning on a broader scale. Objective maps can be done by using common sense, a general knowledge of the map layout, and a pragmatic approach to handling zombies. Survival maps require a more strategic element with players tackling entry points in a coordinated manner. It's a game that seems to reward the more intellectually driven player and less one that simply wants to attack every zombie they face.

That behavior, by the way, is the exact behavior this game would be rewarding if players couldn't herd zombies to one side or the other.

Should there be a greater chaotic element? Sure! I think the devs included that in the latest patch, because I know I can't herd zombies as well as I could. No longer can I simply swarm a bunch of zombies to one side on the wall in Chinatown or behind the chain link fence in Broadway; some just wander aimlessly, making such a herding attempt less effective. It is still[/] effective, however, allowing players to knock down the one or two that get in the way and still sneak past for the most part.

Making running past zombies extremely difficult or impossible won't make it harder; it'll turn it into another L4D2 or similar game wannabe.

EDIT: While I like the idea of weapons breaking, it would be more suitable on objective maps than survival maps; with the difficulty to get the very weapon you want in the first place, having melee weapons break would simply make such maps infuriating.

I think that was one of the reasons why some weapons were never added, though then again I can't remember if it was from NMRiH or Zombie Panic: Source, the weapons in particular being the Pipe Bomb and Molotov Cocktail which had idiots just saying they were copying Left 4 Dead which was stupid reason. I don't understand how people could say someone was copying Left 4 Dead by adding a pipe bomb or molotov cocktail.

Personally I do agree about weapon "breaking" but only with very specific melee weapons, normally stuff you'd find that would break apart after a few hits like a glass bottle or a brick. I could see there also being weapon jamming with firearms, I mean you don't get 100% success running a gun through standard "wal-mart" ammo, your bound to get jams and mis-fires from a couple of them and not all the firearms are brand new off the shelf, some could be damaged in some way or perhaps had years of neglect making them stiff to fire and reload.

Personally I think one way to increase the challenge of Survival, is to make it so that nothing is laid out as it is. Currently it seems that when Runners or Kids come in it's fairly predictable what round they come and when to be prepared, perhaps one way is to make it random. Some that Runners could appear anytime at all and not just have a pre-determined round they always come at.

Alternatively, whenever Human NPC's are introduced, perhaps have a Wave or which introduces, not Zombies but Human enemies, looters or Bandits, desperate Survivors looking for safety or even a "Fake Supply Chopper" that instead of dropping off Supplies, drops off an elite 4 man Marine Team that is ordered to eliminate all possible infectee's

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Alternatively, whenever Human NPC's are introduced, perhaps have a Wave or which introduces, not Zombies but Human enemies, looters or Bandits, desperate Survivors looking for safety or even a "Fake Supply Chopper" that instead of dropping off Supplies, drops off an elite 4 man Marine Team that is ordered to eliminate all possible infectee's

I think the devs planned on doing that. When will we see it? Idk, I sure hope 1.07

But really, we have a perfect base of a mod. All I see that's needed is more randomness. L4D only has about 4 different map layouts, and that makes it feel somewhat random. We can have a few more maps, with several more ways to do something.

Even if survival maps were to add a element of randomness, it would make you feel like you aren't playing the same thing over again.

As for being easy, the hardcore mode should be much harder (clips act like real clips, you loose the ammo you had)..

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Is it just me, or am I getting the strange sensation that people expect NMRiH to be like L4D/L4D2?

Perhaps part of the reason the game seems "easy" is it relies less on twitch-fast reflexes and on-the-fly tactical thinking vs more intellectually driven game play with an emphasis on strategic planning on a broader scale. Objective maps can be done by using common sense, a general knowledge of the map layout, and a pragmatic approach to handling zombies. Survival maps require a more strategic element with players tackling entry points in a coordinated manner. It's a game that seems to reward the more intellectually driven player and less one that simply wants to attack every zombie they face.

That behavior, by the way, is the exact behavior this game would be rewarding if players couldn't herd zombies to one side or the other.

Should there be a greater chaotic element? Sure! I think the devs included that in the latest patch, because I know I can't herd zombies as well as I could. No longer can I simply swarm a bunch of zombies to one side on the wall in Chinatown or behind the chain link fence in Broadway; some just wander aimlessly, making such a herding attempt less effective. It is still[/] effective, however, allowing players to knock down the one or two that get in the way and still sneak past for the most part.

Making running past zombies extremely difficult or impossible won't make it harder; it'll turn it into another L4D2 or similar game wannabe.

EDIT: While I like the idea of weapons breaking, it would be more suitable on objective maps than survival maps; with the difficulty to get the very weapon you want in the first place, having melee weapons break would simply make such maps infuriating.

It is just you. Veteran players aren't looking for the game to change, but rather a refreshing feel of challenge in nmrih than they are used to. As for weapons breaking, I think that survival should have weapons break too because that adds more of a challenge than being able to sit upstairs all day in isolated, etc.

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You know, the biggest issue that ruins games today is the ability to break something one uses in the game. I've personally never held an object type that can be used as a weapon and have it break so easily. That being said, any game that has hindered my ability to use something I've obtained that just breaks randomly. Has never served a "fun" method. Especially in a video game world. At the end of the day, you are literally asking in return a game that doesn't allow you to play, and only be punished with no challenge to it. Other than a game that plays a Magic 8-ball on you of chance and luck...

What I would advise to you players is to as well, come up with a logical challenge method that involves critical thinking like a sportsman figuring out on the fly how to get a touchdown, goal, etc. Rather than the logic of technicality. Just imagine you were still a child on the playground playing "TAG" with a group of kids. And lets just say 1 of those kids makes the rules and applies a lot of technical garbage to the game. Would you really have fun? Sure you may chance the idea this nerd has... but literally, the game isn't fun for more than 1 play. Because this damn kid has got you thinking more about stuff, than to enjoy doing what the initial concept was in the first place.

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You know, the biggest issue that ruins games today is the ability to break something one uses in the game. I've personally never held an object type that can be used as a weapon and have it break so easily. That being said, any game that has hindered my ability to use something I've obtained that just breaks randomly. Has never served a "fun" method. Especially in a video game world. At the end of the day, you are literally asking in return a game that doesn't allow you to play, and only be punished with no challenge to it. Other than a game that plays a Magic 8-ball on you of chance and luck...

What I would advise to you players is to as well, come up with a logical challenge method that involves critical thinking like a sportsman figuring out on the fly how to get a touchdown, goal, etc. Rather than the logic of technicality. Just imagine you were still a child on the playground playing "TAG" with a group of kids. And lets just say 1 of those kids makes the rules and applies a lot of technical garbage to the game. Would you really have fun? Sure you may chance the idea this nerd has... but literally, the game isn't fun for more than 1 play. Because this damn kid has got you thinking more about stuff, than to enjoy doing what the initial concept was in the first place.

It depends how it is used in games. Like games where you have a bar of health for your weapon before it breaks and is not usable, where you have to get it repaired becomes more of a chore. But many machetes are cheap and are flimsy blades, axes have axe heads that can fall off after too much wear, guns can jam, baseball bats can snap, wrench heads can fall off (after smashing solid objects, as they are not meant for being used as hammers)

People love the core game, hence why we are still here. The point is, a challenge to keep your 'experienced' players replaying your game is just as critical as sucking in new players.

Sure it might be great on the cover, but once you scratch the surface and realize a game has no content (not referring to this game, just games in general) do you think players are gonna keep playing?

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