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The Scientist

Random Weapon Placement

47 posts in this topic

So I guess it's common knowledge that there will be some sort of random weapon placement for the game. I was wondering how this would work but still give the mapper some creative control where certain types of weapons go and I came up with this idea. I described it somewhat in a different thread, but so it doesn't get lost I though I should post is as a separate suggestion.

Anyway, so that the mapper could decide what types of weapons go in certain area's, I was thinking of something like this: The mapper places multiple weapon entities around the area they want that gun to spawn, then tie all those entities together with a certain parameter and specify what gun it is. Then when the map is loaded, that particular gun will be placed randomly at one of the places that was specified for that entity group. The same gun could be used in two different entity groups through the use of different names for the groups.

This could help mappers if they want to have a certain pistol appear somewhere in a certain house or apartment, or if they want police weapons to appear randomly ONLY in the police station, etc.

Just an idea.

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Sounds awesome :). Because of the way certain weapons work (such as a SWAT m4) it can't be found anywhere on the map it needs to be with or near by the dead swat team etc, so with this implemented it means that people know vaguely where the weapon will be but won't run there every time knowing exactly where it is :).

Not sure if thats a worthwhile point but I do like your idea :).

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That sounds like how they're probably approaching it (or something similar). And if not, that's a great idea.

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It has been the plan ever since the mod was created, we had a massive topic dedicated to this. Zombie Panic Source has this already in place, although the spawns are set. Then all the items and weapons are randomly distributed in them, bar a few. We could also definately use the ammo drop idea, their's works very well.

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No, I wasn't suggesting random weapon placement, I already knew you were doing that. I just simply suggesting a method of doing it where the mapper still had control over what general area the weapon showed up in, that way it's realistic where the weapons are found, not just lying randomly in a doorway or something like that.

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lol me and pongles talked about it yesterday, and we came to pretty much the same conclusion as you :) We are implementing a system to give level designers like myself as much control as we can.

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I'm glad to see that this complete idea is still in the mod. As I mentioned elsewhere (the same elsewhere that The Scientist refers to) I originally suggested something similar when I was on the team. God only knows where my code flow diagram ended up. I would hope that it survived somewhere. Of course it was only a diagram, as I'm not proficient in HL2's code (C++ varient, right?).

As The Scientist mentioned random weapons were always planned for NMRiH, but intelligent random spawns are important. I for one would hate to find fire axes spawning in kitchens and opening up a bedroom closet to foind a chainsaw. I know people keep kinky things in their bedrooms... but that would be a bit much. As The Scientist mentioned, a secondary list to manage what spawned at a location, if anything, would help. So if the master list included a Baseball Bat, it could randomly spawn in a closet, garage, under a bar counter, ect. But it wouldn't spawn in a kitchen, on a weapon rack in a gun shop, in a polce car, ect.

The next item was ammo. Originally it was discussed to tie ammo directly to the firearms that required the ammo. It was decided where they would use a secondary spawn point located at each primary spawn point (i.e. a shotgun is spawned in a closet, which activates the secondary spawn point to spawn a box of shotgun shells). The concern was whether you could potentially spawn firearms, but either incorrect ammo or not enough. Keeping in mind that it was a survival horror game and not going overboard on ammo either.

On a side topic, certain NPCs were also setup to support weapons/ammo that couldn't often be acquired anywhere else on a map. For example, the SWAT Officer was supposed to be armed with an MP5 or combat shotgun. In the maps they appeared players often could not find MP5 lying around, but when a SWAT Officer died, they would drop their MP5, allowing the player to get it. Ammo wasn't dropped, but searching a dead SWAT Officer produced ammo. If the SWAT Officer became a zombie then it made ammo hunting a bit more interesting.

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Minus the intelligent spawns the spawn system of Zombie Panic! Source completely qualifies for NMRiH as does the inventory system.

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What I'd like to see is Army surplus stores where players can find knifes body armor and stuff like that to make people work together and get what they need and get out that's more lifelike than a pistol spawning in a house randomly I think

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...as does the inventory system.

Would someone be willing to explain the inventory system used in ZP:S? As noted, somewhere, I don't play that mod so it's hard to make a proper comparison without information on how it works. Contrary to popular belief, I don't know everything. ;)

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What I think is that when there's a Gun Shop (like the Amunation in ZP:S) it has to contain actual weapons, not like 2 weapons and that's it.

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Well if a gun-shop contained a realistic amount of weapons, it'd make for unbalanced gameplay. Besides, it's logical to assume that in the morning stage of the zombie apocalypse, gun shops were one of the first targets for looters. Ergo, it's not only beneficial to NMRiH's objective of creating a game where firearms are scarce to only have a few weapons in a gun shop... but it also makes perfect sense.

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Would someone be willing to explain the inventory system used in ZP:S? As noted, somewhere, I don't play that mod so it's hard to make a proper comparison without information on how it works. Contrary to popular belief, I don't know everything. ;)

To make it easier: a screenshot (I just took it from the ZP:S forums).

Example.jpg

Bottem left: The weapons you have [select them with: 1,2,3,4,5.. etc.] it also lets you see how much rounds you have left in your firearm.

Bottem "middle": A graphic representation of your magazine currently it's the MP5 mag of his MP5, if it's a pistol mag when you have a pistol etc.

Bottem right: The cool part, when you pick up extra ammo it goes in your inventory system. This guy picked up 92 rifle rounds. I he would've had for example 10 Magnum rounds and 20 pistol rounds he could've used (default) V to move the arrow next to the text to the type of ammo he wanted to select. With B you select how much you want to drop, this guy has DROP AMOUNT set to "FULL MAGAZINE". You can also change it to: HALF MAGAZINE and ALL, if you have selected the ammo you wanted to drop and how much you press T to drop. If you reload it takes the ammo from the inventory on the left.

It works like a charm! I really got used to it and I think it's great!

Feel free to correct me guys.

EDIT: Had to edit my post because the picture I used doesn't work anymore.

Edited by iniquity

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It works like a charm! I really got used to it and I think it's great!

Feel free to correct me guys.

Will do.

The part that shows how much ammunition you have left inside your gun is unfortunately inaccurate. I've realized that sometimes I have more bullets than what it displays.

There goes your perfect inventory :P .

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Well if a gun-shop contained a realistic amount of weapons, it'd make for unbalanced gameplay.

Actually not, as you yourself said they would be the first places to get looted to oblivion. So having them have realistic amount of weapons wouldn't be unbalanced at all since they wouldn't have any!

And completely random spawns wouldn't even be that bad, since there are alot of explanations for a shotgun, for example, getting on a kitchen table. Say a survivor got a shotgun from somewhere, and hes on one of his regular looting runs, getting food and stuff from the neighbours house, but he makes the crucial mistake of leaving the shotgun on the kitchen table while he rummages through cabinets and stuff. Two zombies appear from nowhere, and are quickly inbetween him and the shotgun, so he decides to flee through the backdoor rather than risk trying to get the shotgun. This is just something from the top of my head, and there could be better explanations for even weirder stuff. I'm still glad that the devs are going to make a more advanced spawn system, hell i might even try making a few maps myself since i have so many ideas for them.

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Behold my awesome power to reply to everyone's posts!

What I think is that when there's a Gun Shop (like the Amunation in ZP:S) it has to contain actual weapons, not like 2 weapons and that's it.

Well it depends on the nature of the map, but in essence I could see this happening. After all firearms are great, but they have one key flaw, they require ammunition. The simple matter in this case wouldn't be controlling the number of firearms, but rather the amount of ammunition. I mean seriously, so what if you have 10 shotguns? If you only have 10 shotgun shells I highly doubt you'll feel the urge to load each shotgun once to make them all feel useful. ;)

Nope, in that case you'll probably take 1-3 shotguns and possibly split the ammo between yourself and your allies. Of course even then we have to factor in that there is a limit to what anyone can hold, so if you have a map where the store will become inaccessible later on (due to map objectives) it could be the one-stop "gear-up" location on the map for all the players, after which maybe there are no other locations where they'll find more ammo or firearms. So while they may start off heavily powered, over time that advantage will disappear and only if they used their firepower juduciously will they have any left by the time the map is done. Just a thought.

Well if a gun-shop contained a realistic amount of weapons, it'd make for unbalanced gameplay. Besides, it's logical to assume that in the morning stage of the zombie apocalypse, gun shops were one of the first targets for looters. Ergo, it's not only beneficial to NMRiH's objective of creating a game where firearms are scarce to only have a few weapons in a gun shop... but it also makes perfect sense.

Of course this is true as well. It's a simple matter to have useful stores raided, but as noted above the key element that could have been taken may very well have been ammunition. After all, a man might need only one shotgun, but is there a limit to how much ammo he might need? Not likely. I would assume survivors would have carted off as much as they could carry. Of course there would likely still firearms lying around...

Bottem right: The cool part, when you pick up extra ammo it goes in your inventory system. This guy picked up 24 Shotgun shells and 11 Magnum rounds. With (default) V you move the arrow next to the text to the type of ammo you want to select. With B you select how much you want to drop, this guy has DROP AMOUNT set to "ALL". You can also change it to: Half a magazine and a full magazine, if you selected the ammo you wanted to drop and how much you press T to drop. If you reload it takes the ammo from the inventory on the left.

It works like a charm! I really got used to it and I think it's great!

Feel free to correct me guys.

Well it certainly sounds like a good system, with my only concern being whether you could keep track of all the commands, but as you stated you didn't have any issue with it. Back when I was on the team we discussed managing ammunition, but I don't believe the system worked as well as this one (which I can say honestly because I came up with the original ammo management system). Of course I have no idea what is planned currently.

Does ZP:S include any non-weapon/ammo items (i.e. selectable gear or objective-based items)?

And completely random spawns wouldn't even be that bad, since there are alot of explanations for a shotgun, for example, getting on a kitchen table. Say a survivor got a shotgun from somewhere, and hes on one of his regular looting runs, getting food and stuff from the neighbours house, but he makes the crucial mistake of leaving the shotgun on the kitchen table while he rummages through cabinets and stuff. Two zombies appear from nowhere, and are quickly inbetween him and the shotgun, so he decides to flee through the backdoor rather than risk trying to get the shotgun. This is just something from the top of my head, and there could be better explanations for even weirder stuff.

While it's plasuible to find almost anything anywhere in most cases reasonable placement would just attribute towards not having to sell an idea/reason to the players. After all, if the mapper did want to place something like a firearm in an odd location they could always place it beside the corpse of a dead survivor.

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Well it certainly sounds like a good system, with my only concern being whether you could keep track of all the commands, but as you stated you didn't have any issue with it. Back when I was on the team we discussed managing ammunition, but I don't believe the system worked as well as this one (which I can say honestly because I came up with the original ammo management system). Of course I have no idea what is planned currently.

Does ZP:S include any non-weapon/ammo items (i.e. selectable gear or objective-based items)?

It's not too hard, you hardly ever change the drop amount, it goes really smooth!

If you don't have ammo in a slot your arrow doesn't go to it if you try to select.

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It's not too hard, you hardly ever change the drop amount, it goes really smooth!

If you don't have ammo in a slot your arrow doesn't go to it if you try to select.

Now by the screenshot I see there are 4 types of ammunition. Is that all ZP:S includes, or are there others that are hidden? I guess the question here is, does NMRiH have similar types? Also what ammo does the MP5 use? The same as the Light. Pistol?

If NMRiH has more than 4 types of ammunition, or maybe even if it doesn't... wouldn't it be cool it to save space on the right-corner it only registered ammunition that you actually had? For example, if you had 0 Shotgun shells then it should hide that category until you pick some up. That way, if you had no ammo (a bad situation, but feasible) then at the very least you get to see the bottom-right corner of the screen unblocked by text.

Also, does ZP:S have grenades?

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Yeah but making that differ everytime would make it impossible.

Rifles are rifles, shotguns are shotguns, pistols are pistols, revolvers are revolvers.

How lame would it be if we had to find the exact right ammo for every firearm we find?

If we're going to "bitch" about this we could do it about everything.

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They could at least merge MP5 ammo with Pistol ammo as it should be in the first place. Counter-Strike does it. It would also add a little more to the tension, not frustration by trying to find the exact box as it would just be the pistol ammo. Should you keep some in reserve for your pistol or use it all for your MP5?

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Now by the screenshot I see there are 4 types of ammunition. Is that all ZP:S includes, or are there others that are hidden? I guess the question here is, does NMRiH have similar types? Also what ammo does the MP5 use? The same as the Light. Pistol?

If NMRiH has more than 4 types of ammunition, or maybe even if it doesn't... wouldn't it be cool it to save space on the right-corner it only registered ammunition that you actually had? For example, if you had 0 Shotgun shells then it should hide that category until you pick some up. That way, if you had no ammo (a bad situation, but feasible) then at the very least you get to see the bottom-right corner of the screen unblocked by text.

Also, does ZP:S have grenades?

To answer that question regarding grenades yes, they do, but they don't really do that much except kill team mates or kill the dumb zombie as I find the fuse length is too long to use on large groups

They were also supposed to have Molotov's and Pipebombs but that got left out as well as a double barrel shotgun

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